MLP Daytona – 7 Takeaways – New Conclusions?

📸 @tyler.loong

It is officially the quarter mark through the year and it sure feels like there is non-stop pickleball action. We are constantly learning more about the game, players and the format of MLP. At the same time, it kind of feels like the more you know, the more you don’t really know at all, especially when it comes to MLP. The Daytona MLP featured another weekend with results that differed from the previous event and fitting conclusions into neatly wrapped narratives is not always going to be easy. Regardless, we’ll do our best to synthesize the biggest and best storylines from MLP’s second event of 2023. 

1. Anti-Energy Finals (Gritty) – The Seattle Pioneers prevailed over the California BLQK Bears in a somewhat unexpected finals going into the weekend. While Seattle remained one of the favorites prior to the event, it was unclear to me what California had in a squad that was missing Maggie Brascia at the first event. California proved it was more than up to the task of being a title contender as they came first in their group where they had beat Seattle in a Dreambreaker and handed a loss to Ben Johns in men’s doubles – his only game loss in 2 events so far. We can talk about the matchups and the teams all we want, but what stood out to me about is what has not been talked about as much in the MLP post-mortem. 

It is always interesting to see how narratives get created. With the Mad Drops winning in Mesa, one of the takeaways for a lot of people was that the win provided confirmation that energy is a crucial part to building a successful MLP team. Although I am not doubting that high energy and positive energy can be very beneficial, I have continued to think that it is not a requirement from a team building standpoint. Owner of BLQK, Ritchie Tuazon, has said on publicly earlier this year that he is simply looking for the best pickleball players. 

Despite there being some doubts on my end as to whether Tuazon’s team had the best players, it is clear from his comments that energy is not a primary consideration in roster construction. Take a look at all 8 players in the MLP final. I don’t think you could accurately describe one of them as a high energy player. Ben Johns is kind of a cheat code for MLP so if you want to throw his team out of this discussion, you can look at the California squad and say that nothing looks particularly special about their team from an energy standpoint. Dylan Frazier has historically struggled at MLP, and people have attributed part of those struggles to his lack of energy. It didn’t make sense to either of us that Frazier has struggled so much at MLP and, honestly, it was nice to see him find some success.

California is a team that featured 4 versatile players performing their team assigned role at a high level. Maybe we have a different storyline if Thomas Wilson does not get hurt and the Mad Drops have their full squad. On the other hand, Julian Arnold, Catherine Parenteau and Irina Tereschenko did not have the same level of success as in Mesa, Thomas Wilson’s absence aside, this past weekend. 

Energy is helpful but I’ll continue to believe it is not the be all, end all for roster construction at MLP.

2. Substitute City (Slim) – We had two teams, with male substitute players make the playoffs this weekend. The defending champs, the Mad Drops, lost Thomas Wilson but were still able to make the playoffs with Hunter Johnson. The New York Hustlers lost Tyson McGuffin, who seems to have awful health luck at MLP, after day 1 but were still able to make the playoffs after picking up Brendon Long.

At the first MLP event we saw Hunter Johnson, pull off a lot of magic carrying a very flawed Atlanta team to the Challenger semi-finals. He wasn’t able to replicate that success this time around as Atlanta went 0-3 in their pool play, but that meant he was available to fill in for his injured friend Thomas Wilson on the Mad Drops. Johnson performed quite well, helping the Mad Drops earn a 2-1 record in pool play and make the playoffs. His doubles game still seems to be a work in progress at this level, but he looked the part of Premier League player, and will certainly be a player teams are looking at in the second Premier division draft. Johnson has the comfort to be able to fill a right side male role while playing as an alpha in mixed.

Nobody’s stock can be rising faster than Brendon Long’s right now, who has made his own good fortune. He has gone from being completely overlooked in the Challenger Draft, which will never make sense, to going out and making teams take notice of him, by grabbing a gold medal with Bobbi Oshira at the APP’s Daytona event, along with a bronze with Stefan Auvergne in men’s doubles.

Long then got picked up by the Miami Pickleball Club with the second pick in the Challenger Shuffle Draft, and completely changed the fortunes of a Miami team, that had been a laughing stock at the first MLP event, leading them to the semi-finals. As a sidenote, it was sure fun to get the Jeff Warnick experience in meaningful pickleball matches again. When Tyson McGuffin got hurt for the New York Hustlers, it was Long who got the call up to the Premier League in prime time, and looked every part of a Premier League player, helping them secure a spot in the playoffs, with a victory over the Hard Eights, even clinching the Dreambreaker.

What these performances, along with Stefan Auvergne showing well in the first event, and guys like Pablo Tellez and Christian Alshon, winning back to back Challenger Championships, tells us is that competition is going to be extremely tough for the last few men’s spots in the second Premier Season. Ben Johns and Anna Bright were publicly speculating on Twitter about the Challenger players going Premier. Whether they have ulterior motives as Premier players themselves is to be determined but it is interesting social media conversation.

It currently looks like there are more players capable of playing at that level than there are spots available. Also without the ability to add or drop players at the Premier level, it will be a major mistake if a team misses on one of it’s men’s picks, as it is clear there are plenty of guys capable of playing at the Premier level.

3. The Braverman Bump (Gritty) – We had wondered after the announcement of Jillian Braverman’s entry to the Challenger Shuffle Draft whether her entry could slant the entire course of the Challenger division. Our take on the situation is that her ability to enter the Shuffle Draft was a problem because one team would be the massive beneficiary of a Premier level talent in a #2 female spot. It had the potential to reward sub-optimal drafting when every win has an immense impact on the future of each MLP franchise. As the worst team in Mesa, Columbus had the opportunity to draft Braverman but they surprised me by flipping Braverman for Megan Fudge. The trade did not make that much sense as the question for Fudge was whether her game is suited to being an alpha Challenger player in comparison with Braverman’s definite alpha style of play.

In any event, the Braverman bump proved to be a real thing and more for Dallas on the weekend.

Despite her limited pro play over the past calendar year, Braverman was everything that I expected she could be on the court, other than the unprecedented amount of falling that she managed to accomplish. Braverman, along with Shuffle Draft pick-up, Daniel De La Rosa, propelled Dallas to a 2nd place finish in the Challenger division. After watching Braverman, I think there is little doubt that she would be a top 2 women’s pick in Challenger, if not #1, if we were re-drafting today. Her comfort on the left also afforded Dallas the ability to optimize the unorthodox mixed play of Brandon French, who played better than I anticipated at any point. 

Even though the trade of Fudge for Braverman was not complete highway robbery, the fit of Jillian Braverman suddenly turned Dallas into a legitimate title contender in Challenger. Without any other information, I’ll have to chalk this one up to savvy maneuvering on the part of dual-division GM, Dave Fleming, and his Mark Cuban owned Dallas Pickleball Club. In acquiring Braverman, it is indisputable that Braverman’s insertion into MLP part-way through the Challenger season has been far more than a bump to the title contention hopes of Dallas and they should be right in the mix for the final event of season 1. 

4. California Dreaming (Slim) – The BLQK Bears, had a very average first MLP event in Mesa, where they went 1-2 and missed the playoffs. Despite the fact that they were missing Maggie Brascia in Mesa, the result was not shocking to us, as they seemed to profile as a middle of the pack Premier League team. One that would likely be fighting for a playoff spot, but not a true contender.

However it seems Maggie Brascia, was the missing piece for BLQK as they made an undefeated run to the championship match this weekend, before losing to Seattle. Brascia and Andrea Koop went undefeated in women’s doubles through pool play, and in the semi-finals, won what was one of the most entertaining women’s matches ever, over Anna Leigh Waters and Lea Jansen, before dropping the final to a Seattle team they had beaten in pool play.

It was definitely an impressive performance by BLQK, but one thing to watch for in Newport, is whether this team can keep its dreambreaker success up. BLQK went to a dreambreaker, in all three of it’s pool play matches, and won all three, including against the winless across 2 events, Frisco Clean Cause. The Dreambreaker wins, included an extremely impressive performance by Dylan Frazier against Ben Johns in BLQK’s win over Seattle, in pool play. Both Federico Staksrud and Dylan Frazier, track as plus singles players, so this was not all luck by any means, but neither Brascia or Koop would track as plus women’s singles players, so it is fair to wonder how BLQK will fair if they find themselves in more dreambreakers in Newport. Their 100% win percentage in Daytona, does not seem sustainable.

Nevertheless, winning those close matches and Dreambreakers is often what MLP is all about. California is a very deserving finalist and played best when it mattered most.

5. Competitive Balance (Gritty) – One of the most appealing aspects of MLP is that the draft creates matchups that we would not see in any other context. The best players are forced to play with players who are not also the best. The nature of the draft and the format of the teams provides the potential for a great deal of variance at each event. It is part of what makes MLP really exciting. I think what has also become clear about MLP is that, for the most part, all the teams are competitive. 

As always, there are going to be better teams and weaker teams, but most of the teams are in the mix. If you take Clean Cause out of the equation, there is not a single team in this format that is a complete walkover. I thought the St. Louis Shock were going to have very real problems with a legacy #1 female, a questionable #1 male and two other players that seemed to have some versatility limitations prior to 2023. However, it is clear the talent across the board in the Premier division makes for competitive teams and St. Louis is the team I was most wrong about. 

6 teams have to miss the playoffs and 6 teams have to make the playoffs. The Florida Smash were a playoff team in Mesa but went 0-3 in Daytona. The SoCal Hard Eights got Riley Newman back and went 1-2 across three Dreambreakers, which included beating the New Jersey 5’s. The Mad Drops were a semi-final team with Hunter Johnson subbing in for Thomas Wilson. The Las Vegas Night Owls have missed the playoffs twice but have generally been competitive in the majority of their matches. Milwaukee has underperformed but are far from a free win for any team. The 5’s have Anna Leigh Waters and have yet to make a final. ATX has JW Johnson and went 2-1 missing the playoffs. 

A Dreambreaker or two going a different way can change the whole landscape of the event. There has been tons of draft discussion about the optimal strategy for MLP rosters, but it could be far more straightforward than that. It may simply come down to picking the right players. Yes, I know, thanks Sherlock. 

The Mad Drops went female/female with their first two picks and won a Championship while the Florida Smash’s Irvine and Jorja Johnson did not click as a partnership at all and the Mashers Smith/Kovalova partnership has underwhelmed. California went a more standard girl-guy-girl-guy formula and made it all the way to the finals this weekend. The Hard Eights and Clean Cause have not been successful with the guy-guy formula, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it was the wrong strategy as you can definitely question some of the selections made within that route taken. 

With no Shuffle Draft, the Premier division format is extra punishing for teams that didn’t make the right picks. There are limited moves to make in a 3-event season when you can only trade amongst the 48 players that are in Premier. With only one event left, there not nearly as much to lose for teams that have not seen the desired results in season 1 at Premier and there was already a trade announced Monday afternoon between the Florida Smash and Las Vegas Night Owls – Jessie Irvine and Collin Johns for Vivienne David and Kyle Yates. It may only take as much as one move, one break, one call or one Dreambreaker. With how competitive the league is right now, there is not a major difference between a successful final event and a feeling of desperation as we head into season 2 at the Challenger level.

6. Rally Scoring Variance (Slim) – Ben Padula Real Clear Stats, published an analysis the other day, and found that a rally scoring game to 21, are basically identical to traditional scoring games to 11. We see in standard pro tournaments that anything can happen in a game to 11, but over the course of three games, the better team is usually going to find a way to win. Part of what makes MLP exciting is the unpredictability of it, but I do wonder if the rally scoring games to 21, add a bit too much variance, especially as the stakes keep getting higher and higher with MLP.

The first ever MLP event, had traditional scoring with games to 15, and I do wonder if the rally scoring shouldn’t be increased to say 30, to mimic a traditional scoring game to 15. This would also allow teams a little more time, to adjust their strategy in a match as well. We know that in a game to 11, with traditional scoring, it is very difficult for a team to shift their approach, and that sometimes there just isn’t enough time to overcome a poor start, but that a game 15 those few points, can provide a team with enough time to make some adjustments.

In my mind, this change would keep things exciting from an anything can happen standpoint while perhaps eliminating a percentage of that luck of the draw feeling that can accompany MLP matches. Moreover, if MLP continues to grow in terms of viewership and begins to eat into what fans truly care about from a results perspective, it may not be as good for the game to have too much parity with the best players and/or teams subject to such a high degree of randomness.

I would love to know what everyone thinks. Do you like the variance and unpredictability of the games to 21, or would you like to raise the winning score to provide teams, with more opportunity to implement and adjust strategy?

7. Seeding Questions (Gritty) – MLP made some adjustments to tiebreakers coming out of the group stage after Mesa. However, we saw in both the Challenger and the Premier divisions that the net games won played itself out when it came to seedings for the playoffs and which teams would get a bye. In both the Challenger and Premier divisions, the top two seeds getting byes came from the same group – California/Seattle, Bay Area/Dallas. I don’t actually know if this was a change from the first MLP that both byes could come from the same group. Regardless, I can’t say I was a fan.

Something felt wrong with two teams being able to come out of the same group with the top seeds. There are two sides to this. The one side is that groups shouldn’t matter and overall performance should be what counts when group draws are based on luck. On the other hand, it can unfairly punish teams that are in more evenly matched groups and do not have the benefit of having Frisco Clean Cause or AZ drive in their group. 

There is never a perfect way to do these things but I have a hard time getting on board with two teams in the same group getting a bye on net games won when the #2 team gets a 4-0 win versus the weakest team out there. This has been an ongoing discussion in other pro sports like baseball with respect to the importance placed on divisions. The difference in those contexts is that those teams are playing every team over the course of 162 games. It isn’t fair when a 95-win Boston Red Sox team has to play in a wild card game while the 86-win Chicago White Sox get a better seed by winning their crummy division. However, you can’t apply season long principles to a short 3-game round robin format.  

I’m not saying you can’t change my mind on this topic but, currently, I am not a fan of the ability to get a bye without winning your group. 

Agree or disagree? Let us know in the comments below or email us at nmlpickleball@gmail.com. Subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook.

56 thoughts on “MLP Daytona – 7 Takeaways – New Conclusions?

  • March 28, 2023 at 4:47 am
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    I’d like longer games to help them be less of a tossup. Rally to 30 without a freeze or with freezing both teams. Or what about best 2 of 3 rally to 11? Gives you a chance to regroup and change strategy if you screw up one game. Maybe include the freeze only in the 3rd game.

    I’m guessing that letting two teams from the same division get byes was just an accident in the way their software automatically computes seeds – and they didn’t notice the error until after they had already published the seeds. There probably wasn’t an active decision to use this approach. It doesn’t seem fair to run it this way. At the same time, it is only possible if the other two divisions don’t have an undefeated team.

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  • March 28, 2023 at 4:56 am
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    “Do you like the variance and unpredictability of the games to 21, or would you like to raise the winning score to provide teams, with more opportunity to implement and adjust strategy?”

    We have to ask ourselves — what’s the point of adjusting strategy? Are we trying to get the best team to win more consistently? If so, why? The PPA format already finds the best players/teams, do we want/need another league doing the same thing?

    We know that for some, having the best teams win with regularity is like administering animal tranquilizers — they fall asleep from boredom. So those folks must love the more random nature provided by MLP.
    If that is what the general viewership also thinks, then that’s the formula for success going forward.

    I have no problem with the randomness/unpredictability. MLP is an entertaining product.

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    • March 28, 2023 at 5:03 am
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      I agree with this take. More variability (I’m not convinced rally scoring causes it, but let’s presume) isn’t good or bad, it’s just a different product. I don’t think it needs to be adjusted to better mimic traditional scoring. And I may be one of the few people who likes the freeze — I don’t care how far ahead you were or how many rallies you won, I care whether you can close it out. That to me seems like the great mark of a winner — the freeze despises chokers.

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      • March 28, 2023 at 5:56 am
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        Rally scoring adds a small amount of variability relative to traditional scoring. Not nothing, but not huge. Part of the variability comes from the decision of who serves first. There’s about a 2% advantage to receiving first. A lot of the variability comes from playing only 1 game instead of best 2/3 – that’s what gives more of a chance to a weaker team, not really rally scoring.

        Why not freeze both teams? Still requires you to win on a serve and not “choke”. But also doesn’t allow you to win a game without winning the most rallies.

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        • March 28, 2023 at 9:12 am
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          MLP has to freeze both teams. I personally think it cannot become a credible sport where one team is handicapped to let the other come back. It shouldn’t be a thing, and I think it must come to an end at some point.

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          • March 28, 2023 at 10:34 am
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            Interesting. You don’t think this is good for the product?

          • March 28, 2023 at 11:48 am
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            I disagree. I love the single freeze. I like the unpredictability of rally scoring. We are not watching this to see the better teams grind out victories like we do in Hockey or NBA. We watch for exciting matches that display the wonder of pickleball. I am liking MLP better than PPA at this point in time. I mean, who wants to see Ben and AL win week after week?

          • March 28, 2023 at 4:42 pm
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            We also like it for MLP. It’s fun.

          • March 28, 2023 at 9:52 pm
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            When one hits 20, then it goes to traditional scoring for both teams. I don’t like this, but it’s better than what they currently do. They could also just let the score continue to rise past 20 – don’t freeze anyone. Continue playing rally. But don’t stop until a team scores on their serve, has at least 21, and is winning by at least 2. This would also make sure the score reflects the actual number of rallies won by each team – which is highly valuable to the DUPR algorithm. Current MLP data is garbage as an input to DUPR because most games have about the same score.

            You just have to use the same scoring system for both teams if this is to be a serious competitive sports league.

          • March 30, 2023 at 10:14 am
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            We’re not necessarily in agreement with this that you can’t utilize the scoring to be a seriously competitive event, but appreciate the thoughts still!

      • March 28, 2023 at 10:24 am
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        It isn’t’ really the rally scoring that causes the variance but it is the one game that causes the variance. It is essentially one traditional scoring game to 11 and we see how often the better team can lose that one game in a best of 3 or 5. We aren’t sold on this thought but curious what fans think for sure.

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        • March 28, 2023 at 11:50 am
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          Again, for me, the unpredictability is why I watch.

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    • March 28, 2023 at 10:23 am
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      We don’t feel exactly the same on this. One question is if MLP continues to grow and this becomes to standard for the sport, is it good that there is such variance? Maybe it is and it should not matter who is the best, but you may also want your stars in the best situations to be in prime time. You need faces of the sport or else you’re just baseball with Mike Trout potentially. Randomness is probably very good now. Is it good long term? No clear answer.

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      • March 28, 2023 at 11:55 am
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        I feel just the opposite. There will be “Big names,” but I love the discovery of little giant killers popping up. I do not give two Sh!ts about “Stars”. I like stars to be upset. We need less LaBrons and more KOOPS! She is my “Beatsie! PS… Great recap of Daytona.

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        • March 28, 2023 at 4:43 pm
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          You don’t have giant killers without giants. Stars are essential for the game because you don’t have players to topple.

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  • March 28, 2023 at 7:09 am
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    6. I agree with Fred’s view. I disagree that any team needs more time during a single game. Sure, in a regular format, they have 3 games to figure things out – and the best team usually does. And that is what Ben’s By the Numbers article says. It also said that the first team to game point wins 91% of the time in either format – but the 2/3 ultimately also gets them the match. But how does MLP also gain them the advantage?

    Most/all MLP premier teams have coaches or have a good strategist player (such as Collin) on their team. In addition, their fellow team players can tell the next team what they discovered about their opponent and pass that info on for the next match. So any team should be able to figure things out quickly and adjust to ultimately win the 3/4. This is akin to the 2/3 in regular scoring.

    Some team owners also keep stats. So the review of what happened at end of day (assuming it occurs) can help them prep for the next day. All of these tools make the “variability” not so variable as all teams have access to these tools. It’s how wisely a team will use them that should ultimately be getting them the championship.

    I can also think of about 5 other “tools” a team could use if they wanted to get that ultimate win. So in my view, take the long view and forget about how there needs to be a more even playing field in a single game.

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    • March 28, 2023 at 10:26 am
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      There is just a finite amount of time in one game to 21 to figure things out. Unclear if that really changes if you push it to 30 but it is a thought to provide less variance. There is a lot more data that will hopefully come out to make the answer more straightforward on this.

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  • March 28, 2023 at 7:15 am
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    I couldn’t find on the live blog what happened to Thomas Wilson. What is his injury and how did it happen?

    That’s 3 for 3 for Tyson. In his first MLP, he gets food poisoning, second the foot injury, and now ?? we don’t know.

    Any takeaway about the impact of the rule changes?

    I was surprised you didn’t say more about the trade. It’s got to be a good move for the Smash. Vivienne and Jorja have won gold together and have good chemistry.

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    • March 28, 2023 at 10:27 am
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      Wrist injury it sounds like. We don’t know what happened there. Weirdly coincidental with Tyson.

      We want to say more about the trade but haven’t had time. Makes sense for both sides to do something. Wonder how much it changes things for either team though at the end of the day. It’s a right sider for right sider men and women. Jessie could play the left though but with Stratman that’s a weird fit either way potentially.

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    • March 28, 2023 at 10:39 am
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      Hey Waggish, I had posted about the TW injury in real time on Twitter & IG. Unfortunate wrist sprain.

      TM had allegedly still been dealing with a foot injury, however, unconfirmed. It was apparent that he was missing a step in Dreambreaker vs 5’s, however he turned it on when adrenaline kicked in.

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  • March 28, 2023 at 8:26 am
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    I agree about the playoff seeding. The winners of each group should get the top three seeds.

    I’m fine with the current rally-to-21 format (I like the freeze at 20/18), but I’d also be ok if they bumped it up to 25.

    After two events, here are the win-loss records for several of the top draft picks. A few things stand out. There is one player who is a clear, big difference-maker, and that is Ben Johns. Ben just about guarantees two points for Seattle in every match. Anna Leigh Waters, as the #1 pick, should also be a difference-maker, but so far she isn’t. She’s above-average. She just can’t dominate the court like Ben does regardless of partner. I don’t know if it’s the wrong partners, wrong strategy (playing the right side and pushing Lea off the court at times), or something else. Obviously, she can’t match Ben’s size, reach, or power, but it feels like her underperformance is a bit more than that. Anna Bright and Catherine Parenteau have performed better so far. Beyond Ben and AL, two stats that stand out are JW’s abysmal 4-8 record and Jay’s impressive 9-4 record. Riley is off to a good start, but it’s only his first event.

    Ben Johns 16-1
    Anna Leigh Waters 10-7 (would be 9-8 if not for the huge comeback against Simone/Allyce)
    Anna Bright 13-7
    JW Johnson 4-8
    Catherine Parenteau 12-7
    Jay Devilliers 9-4
    Jessie Irvine 7-7
    Riley Newman 5-1

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    • March 28, 2023 at 10:32 am
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      Thanks for sharing all of these. It is very interesting to see the records of all the players. JW’s results continue to stand out and it is worrisome he can’t get more mixed results with Jackie. The Gabe Tardio situation stands out as a big miss for ATX. Riley looked like a monster at the first event along with Ben, but it is clear that the men can really impact winning. We haven’t given Jay enough credit for how good he can be in the right situation. He is a good mixed player when he can be big and in men’s his fit with Erik is good because of Erik’s counter punching ability.

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  • March 28, 2023 at 8:58 am
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    Great read as always!

    1) You mention Newport, but guessing you mean San Clemente since that’s where the June MLP will be held.

    2) I like the current scoring. I could probably be convinced to do 30, but the current format allows for a match to be completed in roughly 2 hours which I feel is the sweet spot for a match.

    3) I liked them playing out all 4 matches and then using matches won as the first tiebreaker. If teams are still tied beyond that, points is really about the only way to go.

    4) I didn’t like the 2nd place team from the same pool getting a bye. It should go to the next best pool champ. I also don’t like teams from the same pool being on the same side of the bracket (e.g., Smash and Mad Drops in Mesa). With 3 teams on each side of the bracket, you can easily separate pool teams.

    5) With the trade going down, I wonder if we will see more trades in the future that pair people who live near each other together or if people will consider moving to be near their teammates.

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    • March 28, 2023 at 10:33 am
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      1. Yes we mean San Clemente

      2. We saw you make this point on Twitter about TV and match length time. It is a good point.

      3. It is good for everyone if matches are played out as we get a better understanding of results.

      4. We did not either.

      5. With a trade happening this quickly, can’t be shocked if more trades happen with only one event left. we saw a whole bunch of moves last year with only one event.

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  • March 28, 2023 at 9:23 am
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    I think that MLP HAS to get rid of the one-sided freeze. It is not fair, and to me, it undermines pickleball’s credibility as a sport if it remains in MLP for much longer. Having a team that won FEWER serving rallies than the other team, and the SAME amount of returning rallies as the other team, and letting them still win?!? It makes ZERO sense and should be banned if MLP is going to have any “professional” credibility moving forward.

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    • March 28, 2023 at 9:38 am
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      I would enjoy MLP either way, but agree just freeze it for both. There can still be comebacks.

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    • March 28, 2023 at 11:04 am
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      It’s actually just the opposite — professional athletes squandering their shot at winning is what makes pro sports so enjoyable. Rallies ain’t points! If a team can’t convert, they deserve to lose. This feels like someone arguing it’s “unfair” that the team with more time of possession doesn’t always win an NFL or NBA game, or that the team with the most hits in baseball doesn’t always get the most runs, or that it undermines football’s credibility that a kick through the uprights is 1 point or 3 points, depending on context.

      While I don’t think PB should try to emulate tennis, tennis is a perfect analogy in this case — part of the fun is that no matter how easily or narrowly I win/lose a game, it’s still just one game and it all resets. I don’t get extra credit for winning the game 45-Love. How joyless it would be if they just counted all the rallies over 2 hours.

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      • March 28, 2023 at 12:20 pm
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        He’s not saying that the team that gets to 20 shouldn’t be frozen, but why can’t both be frozen? Your analogies have zero relation to that. If a team is at 16 when the 1st team reaches 20, why not just freeze both? Make both have to score on their serve. It makes more sense from a fan perspective than an arbitrary number like 18.

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      • March 28, 2023 at 4:41 pm
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        These are all good points and fair. It doesn’t always have to be the 100% fairest outcome. And what is anyone’s definition of fair?

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      • March 28, 2023 at 10:00 pm
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        “Rallies ain’t points”?? The whole idea of rally scoring and why people push it so much is that they say rallies should equal points and that it is so confusing for people to have a rally but have no one get a point. Then they come up with a solution where a point isn’t guaranteed, and only one team is eligible for a point on the rally??

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      • March 30, 2023 at 7:08 am
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        “Rallies ain’t points!” — My whole point that becomes clear when you look at the stats is that a team who SCORED MORE POINTS ON THEIR SERVE CAN STILL LOSE! That’s insane!

        P.S. Every match has the same amount of rallies won on the return for both teams by default.

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    • March 28, 2023 at 11:40 am
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      I think the 20/18 freeze works well. Pickleball Studio gave some stats from some new research. The stats say the first team to 10 in traditional PPA scoring and the first team to 20 in MLP rally scoring both have the exact, 91%, chance of winning. Remember, the first team to reach 20 only has to win one point on their serve to win the game. The team coming from behind freezes at 18, which means they must win at least four points on their serve to get to 22+ and win. The team that reaches 20 first has a big advantage. We see plenty of trailing teams get a few points after the leading team freezes on 20, but the fact is very few of the trailing teams come all the back to win.

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      • March 28, 2023 at 12:21 pm
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        I agree. I enjoy watching it. From an outside fan perspective I feel like18 seems so random and weird though. Why not just freeze both when one reaches 20? IDK

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    • March 28, 2023 at 1:10 pm
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      You actually get it. Applause. I’m not a big rally scoring person but the freeze is just ridiculously silly.

      And if the agenda in PB is to appeal to the pro gambling world to make $$$ – seems like constant 22-20 games REALLY hurt the cause. Pure rally scoring over time might actually create over/under lines that professional gambling experts can use to build reliable models. I don’t like rally scoring, but maybe that’s the better route to gambling $$$. Certainly seems like something like “Johns/Johns -3 over Riley/Matt” in a pure rally scoring game to 21 is easier to bet on than something like “Johns/Johns beat Riley/Matt 22-20 winning on their 5th serve when the score was locked” Sigh.

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      • March 28, 2023 at 10:04 pm
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        Yep – gamblers would hate the freeze. They should ditch that if they want to get people betting on a line on a game.

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  • March 28, 2023 at 9:48 am
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    I think you underrate Jay. You call him questionable pick and always mention his hands. His hands are fine and for a guy with slow hands how does he win so many hand battles? How does a guy that has slow hands go 9-4 against players with elite hands??? I don’t think it his hands but his chicken wing is too easy to hit because how he hols the paddle.

    His all round game is second only to Riley – his defense, range, quickness especially for his size.

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    • March 28, 2023 at 10:34 am
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      We just commented to another commenter saying this exact same thing! We definitely have underrated him especially for this format when he’s such a good team guy, always plays hard and when put in the right men’s situation is not fun to play against. Erik is a good partner for him and clearly Jay can still do it in mixed with his size.

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  • March 28, 2023 at 11:29 am
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    Still trying to figure out whether I like rally or not, and I think if you have rally scoring the question becomes the freeze for me. It makes the scores closer, but if point % is a tie breaker I have a hard time giving one team the ability to get points when they other doesn’t. Would it be “more fair” to freeze both teams when one gets to 18, 19 or 20?

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  • March 28, 2023 at 11:31 am
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    Thank you for your time and posting. Always great information. And you know, I haven’t seen any spelling errors of late. 😉 IMO, maybe go to 23, both stop rally scoring at 20. 30 is too long, agree on keeping a match at about two hours max. We have to think about the players as well as our entertainment. In the future, I can see the MLP format becoming official, with a few more tweaks. I’m glad the refs handed out some cards, but wish they handed out a few more, it was the first time. Interestingly, the second feed for MLP is almost always as good as feed one. On other tours, the second feed looks like second-hand equipment. It should be a standard for all (future players’ union rule). Announcing was really good, I think someone high up mentioned that maybe not talk while the players are in action. Most of the stuff commentators say I could care less about. I heard when Pablo Taez (sp) got a blue card for saying something to a spectator, the spectator was ejected from the stands. That is what should happen IMO. I’m not a fan of the crowd yelling and screaming during play. If the players have standards, the crowd should have standards also. Thank you for your time. 🙂

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    • March 28, 2023 at 11:51 am
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      I want the crowd cheering during play. I don’t want hinderance type cheering, calling the ball out, cussing especially at players. I don’t want this to be tennis. I want an energized crowd.

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      • March 28, 2023 at 1:31 pm
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        For me, how do you distinguish between cheering and hindrance cheering? You can’t. And it’s already started, spectators interfering with the game. I’d like to see tennis standards during play, scream all you want between. There’s no energy lost. The energy is there and so is the respect for the players. If a spectator hinders a game, they should be thrown out and not allowed to return. And remember, the tennis crowds are much farther away from the players. So someone screaming 3 feet away from you can be distracting.

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    • March 28, 2023 at 11:52 am
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      BoxCar Productions worked this MLP along with Columbus and Mesa in terms of the cameras and technology.

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    • March 28, 2023 at 4:42 pm
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      Less spelling errors! This is unsustainable, David. When we are editing it at 11:00 pm to try to get it out before bed after a long day, we can’t guarantee the errors are gone.

      MLP has opted for higher standards overall and it shows in the product.

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      • March 28, 2023 at 11:01 pm
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        Uhhhh, I was just joking. I could care less about misspelled words, It was that other guy, who complained. 🙂 I’ll take lots of errors and more content any day. Sorry, you took it the wrong way. 🙁

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        • March 30, 2023 at 10:16 am
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          We know, David! We just think it is funny overall. You can point out all the spelling errors you want if you like 😉

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  • March 28, 2023 at 10:15 pm
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    Any thoughts on the streaming and TV situation? I don’t have the numbers on this, but to me it seemed the YouTube streaming numbers looked lower than the last MLP, and lower than PPA events. Also, instead of broadcasting on CBS Sports or Tennis Channel like in the past, the finals were on the MSG Network. MLP made no attempt to advertise or promote this. Why did they make this seemingly odd broadcasting choice?

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    • March 30, 2023 at 10:16 am
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      The YouTube numbers looked solid compared to last year. We saw stuff close to 5k, if not over 5k. They aren’t getting PPA numbers but we still aren’t sure how legit those PPA numbers are. The broadcasting is weird that there was no advertising of anything and there must have been some reason they could not get on Tennis Channel. The Miami Open was that weekend, which is a fairly sizeable ATP event.

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      • March 30, 2023 at 10:32 am
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        Oh it’s way higher than last year for sure. But it seemed lower than January and lower than PPA. If PPA is fudging the numbers somehow, I’d guess that they’d pass along the same tricks to their partner MLP.

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        • March 30, 2023 at 12:45 pm
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          Possibly. But they may not want to do that. Either way, don’t know if it was lower than Mesa. We’ll try to find out.

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      • March 30, 2023 at 4:21 pm
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        Remember, the live feed numbers are only a small portion of the eventual viewership. I watch some live, but with 2 live streams going on at the same time, I do watch the other ones on youtube but no longer live. Sometimes it is better to get a non live video and fast forward thru the slow stuff and the ads.

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        • March 30, 2023 at 8:53 pm
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          Yeah, but comparing live numbers to live numbers would still show if there is a general trend. Also, the fact that we fast forward through the ads is one reason why the number of viewers after the fact doesn’t matter as much to advertisers.

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        • April 1, 2023 at 11:15 am
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          That is a good point. We have to see what those numbers end up doing.

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